= ReviewerMeeting20090218 =

== summary ==

 * bigjools to take a crack at helper functions for backpatching avoid circular imports
   * does the backpatching go next to where it's needed, or all in one place?
 * intellectronica to come back from sabbatical
 * thumper points out a problem with the `webservice` pagetest glob
   * defaults to salgado, an admin user
   * defaults to change everything
   * can't really be used to test security
   * thumper to open bug on this
 * don't ever call `_foo()` methods from outside class.  make `foo()` public

== logs ==

{{{
Feb 18 10:00:16 <barry>	#startmeeting
Feb 18 10:00:17 <MootBot>	Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is barry.
Feb 18 10:00:17 <MootBot>	Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
Feb 18 10:00:30 <barry>	hello everyone and welcome to this week's ameu reviewers meeting.  who's here today?
Feb 18 10:00:34 <bigjools>	me
Feb 18 10:00:37 <gary_poster>	me
Feb 18 10:00:55 <barry>	we have a number of sprinters who probably won't make it
Feb 18 10:01:04 <bac>	me
Feb 18 10:01:17 <barry>	so today's agenda will be pretty light
Feb 18 10:01:23 <gmb>	me
Feb 18 10:01:24 <salgado>	me!
Feb 18 10:02:40 <barry>	allenap: sinzui cprov BjornT ping
Feb 18 10:02:51 <BjornT>	me
Feb 18 10:02:55 <cprov>	me
Feb 18 10:02:58 <BjornT>	barry: allenap is off sick today
Feb 18 10:03:03 <barry>	BjornT: bummer :(
Feb 18 10:03:03 <gmb>	barry: allenap has the lurgi
Feb 18 10:03:18 <barry>	[TOPIC] agenda
Feb 18 10:03:19 <MootBot>	New Topic:  agenda
Feb 18 10:03:28 <barry>	 * Roll call
Feb 18 10:03:28 <barry>	 * Action items
Feb 18 10:03:28 <barry>	 * Mentoring update
Feb 18 10:03:28 <barry>	 * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
Feb 18 10:03:36 <barry>	[TOPIC] action items
Feb 18 10:03:38 <MootBot>	New Topic:  action items
Feb 18 10:03:43 *	al-maisan (n=al-maisa@p5087E8F4.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #launchpad-meeting
Feb 18 10:03:46 <barry>	 * abentley to experiment on storm base class
Feb 18 10:04:15 <sinzui>	me
Feb 18 10:04:18 <barry>	dunno where abentley is but he did work on a branch, which i semi-reviewed
Feb 18 10:04:38 <barry>	it looked pretty good.  stub did a semi-review too and between us i think we had some good suggestions
Feb 18 10:04:54 <barry>	jml has the official review, though i'll pick it up on friday if it gets that far
Feb 18 10:05:09 <barry>	i think it'll make a nice convenient base class for our storm classes
Feb 18 10:05:21 <barry>	anyway, we'll see how that goes
Feb 18 10:05:31 <barry>	 * barry to add `field_id` to coding guideline
Feb 18 10:05:59 <barry>	that came up at the asiapac meeting.   preference is to use field_id instead of fieldID for foreign key references
Feb 18 10:06:08 <barry>	iow, the attribute name in the storm class
Feb 18 10:06:40 <barry>	 * barry to add `pretty()` functions to reviewers docs
Feb 18 10:06:43 <barry>	not done
Feb 18 10:06:50 <barry>	 * flacoste to work on API reviewer cheat sheet
Feb 18 10:06:55 <barry>	i suspect, not done
Feb 18 10:06:59 <gary_poster>	:-)
Feb 18 10:07:07 <salgado>	he said something about that item last week, didn't he?
Feb 18 10:07:18 <salgado>	or was it his other item?
Feb 18 10:07:50 <barry>	it was that one
Feb 18 10:08:01 <barry>	he's changing his name to flacoste-hoover because he sucks :)
Feb 18 10:08:25 *	barry thinks he has to do the same
Feb 18 10:08:26 <salgado>	Feb 11 10:43:45 <flacoste>      if it's not done next week, i change my
Feb 18 10:08:27 <salgado>	name to flacoste_hoover
Feb 18 10:08:36 <barry>	right :)
Feb 18 10:08:50 <barry>	[TOPIC]  * Mentoring update
Feb 18 10:08:51 <MootBot>	New Topic:   * Mentoring update
Feb 18 10:08:57 <barry>	any feedback from mentors or mentats?
Feb 18 10:09:51 <barry>	okay!
Feb 18 10:10:03 <barry>	[TOPIC]  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
Feb 18 10:10:04 <MootBot>	New Topic:   * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
Feb 18 10:10:09 <barry>	you guys have anything?
Feb 18 10:10:15 <gary_poster>	Why does MootBot suck?
Feb 18 10:10:29 <gary_poster>	Or, ore directly, why don't we have logs? :-)
Feb 18 10:10:35 <gary_poster>	s/ore/more/
Feb 18 10:11:02 <barry>	gary_poster: and why do i continue to use it?
Feb 18 10:11:08 <gary_poster>	:-)
Feb 18 10:11:13 <gary_poster>	It would be nice to have logs
Feb 18 10:11:15 <bigjools>	regarding the patching we do to get around circular imports for the API work, I recommend that we get some helper functions written.
Feb 18 10:11:32 <barry>	bigjools: i think that's the way to go.  my previous experiment failed
Feb 18 10:11:42 <barry>	bigjools: would you like to take a crack at that?
Feb 18 10:11:46 <rockstar>	bigjools, have you seen interfaces/_schema_circular_imports
Feb 18 10:11:56 <bigjools>	rockstar: I haven't
Feb 18 10:12:19 <rockstar>	bigjools, that's where the code team has started putting their circular import avoidance patching.
Feb 18 10:12:36 <gmb>	What happened to lazy_import? Or doesn't that work for schema declarations?
Feb 18 10:12:52 <rockstar>	gmb, I don't think lazy_import would help in this situation.
Feb 18 10:12:55 <bigjools>	barry: I can try, if I find the time!
Feb 18 10:13:00 <bigjools>	rockstar: that's not what I had in miund
Feb 18 10:13:00 <barry>	rockstar: +1 for moving them all to the same place
Feb 18 10:13:16 <gmb>	rockstar: Ah, right
Feb 18 10:13:17 <rockstar>	barry, it makes my life easier, because I know where the declarations are.
Feb 18 10:13:33 <barry>	rockstar: yeah, grepping them out was 3/4 of the pain of my experiment
Feb 18 10:13:34 <bigjools>	I am talking about helper funcs that save you from working out WTF you need to patch
Feb 18 10:13:39 <barry>	though i hate the module name :)
Feb 18 10:13:57 <bigjools>	I'd rather they were kept in the interface file
Feb 18 10:14:13 <rockstar>	bigjools, ah, I can't think of a use for that.  I usually know what I need to patch as I do it.
Feb 18 10:14:22 <barry>	bigjools: if the helpers were easily grepped for, that's fine
Feb 18 10:14:35 <rockstar>	barry, it can be changed.  It was thumper's idea, and can change pretty easily.
Feb 18 10:14:50 <bigjools>	I think something like patch_returns_collection_type(func, type)
Feb 18 10:15:26 <bigjools>	and patch_param_type(func, param, type)
Feb 18 10:15:29 <bigjools>	make sense?
Feb 18 10:16:00 <barry>	something like that.  maybe get 'circular' and 'import' in the names?
Feb 18 10:16:18 <barry>	e.g. close_circular_import(...) ?
Feb 18 10:16:23 <bigjools>	so_we_end_up_with_a_really_long_help_function_name() ? :)
Feb 18 10:16:45 <barry>	bigjools: in the fine tradition of python, keep ugly things ugly :)
Feb 18 10:17:06 <barry>	bigjools: anyway, take a crack at it and i'll happily review it!
Feb 18 10:17:11 <sinzui>	spin_wheels_make_smoke
Feb 18 10:17:15 <bigjools>	okidoki
Feb 18 10:17:37 <barry>	[ACTION] bigjools to work on helper functions for circular imports in interfaces
Feb 18 10:17:38 <MootBot>	ACTION received:  bigjools to work on helper functions for circular imports in interfaces
Feb 18 10:17:43 <barry>	bigjools: thanks!
Feb 18 10:17:49 <bigjools>	my pleasure
Feb 18 10:17:58 <barry>	anything else?
Feb 18 10:18:17 <bigjools>	one more thing
Feb 18 10:18:30 <barry>	sure thing
Feb 18 10:18:42 <bigjools>	I chatted to Bjorn this morning about extending the sourcedeps rsync filter that rocketfuel-get uses
Feb 18 10:18:49 <bigjools>	so it ignores */.bzr/*
Feb 18 10:19:31 <bigjools>	my motiviation being that I am fed up of downloading the huge packs files when rsync runs after a bzr sourcedep update
Feb 18 10:19:31 <bigjools>	does this sound good or bad?
Feb 18 10:19:41 <bigjools>	ideally I'd like to bzr pull the source deps ...
Feb 18 10:20:05 <gary_poster>	buildbot has had issues with pulling bzr this weekend
Feb 18 10:20:21 <gary_poster>	it pulls sourcedeps to update normally
Feb 18 10:20:31 <gary_poster>	but bzr did something funky with their branch
Feb 18 10:20:38 <gary_poster>	so it needed a merge (or an rsync)
Feb 18 10:21:01 <gary_poster>	so rsync is safer when that kind of situation arises
Feb 18 10:21:26 <bigjools>	sounds like it's not a problem to be too worried about?
Feb 18 10:21:37 <barry>	don't we eventually want to move to ppas for all that stuff anyway?
Feb 18 10:21:38 <gary_poster>	sure, once in a month and a half
Feb 18 10:21:50 <bigjools>	how does everyone else sync sourcedeps?
Feb 18 10:21:53 <bigjools>	barry: +1
Feb 18 10:22:01 <barry>	bigjools: rocketfuel-get (rsync)
Feb 18 10:22:05 <gary_poster>	a combination of ppas and buildout eggs
Feb 18 10:22:14 <barry>	gary_poster: yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
Feb 18 10:22:15 <gary_poster>	well, source
Feb 18 10:22:16 <bac>	rf-get
Feb 18 10:22:25 <bigjools>	or "sourcecode" I should say
Feb 18 10:22:42 <barry>	gary_poster: you coming to our nags head sprint? :)
Feb 18 10:23:00 <gary_poster>	barry: not that I know of :-) (first I heard of it)
Feb 18 10:23:08 <barry>	gary_poster: 120 hours of drinkin' and hackin'
Feb 18 10:23:16 <gary_poster>	heh, cool
Feb 18 10:23:17 <bac>	gary_poster: drive on down!
Feb 18 10:23:23 <gary_poster>	:-)
Feb 18 10:23:29 <bigjools>	anyway we don't need to decide now, I just wanted to discuss and see what people thought because I really am fed up with downloading 100+Mb of data when sourcecode/bzr is updated
Feb 18 10:23:56 <barry>	bigjools: thanks for putting this on the radar
Feb 18 10:24:27 <bigjools>	Bjorn's objection to not syncing the .bzr dirs was that people might want to branch off it
Feb 18 10:25:02 <bigjools>	np
Feb 18 10:25:15 <bigjools>	EOF
Feb 18 10:25:21 <gary_poster>	for most people that will happen rarely enough that making a fresh branch shouldn't be a problem
Feb 18 10:25:27 <gary_poster>	IME
Feb 18 10:25:42 <barry>	cool.  anything else on this or other topic?
Feb 18 10:25:56 <bigjools>	my thoughts too - branch off the official source, not our sourcecode deps :)
Feb 18 10:27:10 <barry>	sounds like we're done!
Feb 18 10:27:17 <barry>	#endmeeting
}}}

{{{
Feb 18 19:23:44 <barry>	#startmeeting
Feb 18 19:23:45 <MootBot>	Meeting started at 18:23. The chair is barry.
Feb 18 19:23:45 <MootBot>	Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
Feb 18 19:23:58 <barry>	yada yada yada who's here today yada yada
Feb 18 19:24:05 <thumper>	me
Feb 18 19:24:12 <jml>	Present and accounted for!
Feb 18 19:24:43 <barry>	mwhudson: ping!
Feb 18 19:24:51 <barry>	[TOPIC] agenda
Feb 18 19:24:52 <MootBot>	New Topic:  agenda
Feb 18 19:24:55 <mwhudson>	hi
Feb 18 19:25:03 <barry>	 * Roll call
Feb 18 19:25:03 <barry>	 * Action items
Feb 18 19:25:03 <barry>	 * Mentoring update
Feb 18 19:25:03 <barry>	 * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
Feb 18 19:25:09 <barry>	[TOPIC] action items
Feb 18 19:25:10 <MootBot>	New Topic:  action items
Feb 18 19:25:18 <barry>	 * abentley to experiment on storm base class
Feb 18 19:25:36 <barry>	so, i actually semi-reviewed a branch of his that looks pretty good. stub also semi-reviewed it
Feb 18 19:25:47 <barry>	i think actually jml is the official reviewer
Feb 18 19:25:58 <jml>	yeah.
Feb 18 19:26:05 <jml>	I'll look at that today
Feb 18 19:26:20 <barry>	jml: great! because i think you'll have some useful insights
Feb 18 19:26:32 <barry>	see what you think of stub and my comments
Feb 18 19:26:42 <jml>	I am a man of constant sorrow.
Feb 18 19:26:46 <jml>	and occasional insight.
Feb 18 19:27:32 <barry>	ah what a great movie
Feb 18 19:27:42 <barry>	 * barry to add `field_id` to coding guideline
Feb 18 19:27:54 <barry>	not done, but no disagreement from ameu
Feb 18 19:28:06 <barry>	 * barry to add `pretty()` functions to reviewers docs
Feb 18 19:28:06 <barry>	 * flacoste to work on API reviewer cheat sheet
Feb 18 19:28:09 <barry>	not done, we suck
Feb 18 19:28:18 <barry>	[TOPIC] mentoring update
Feb 18 19:28:19 <MootBot>	New Topic:  mentoring update
Feb 18 19:28:27 <barry>	so jml how goes it with stub?
Feb 18 19:29:18 <jml>	almost no action between last week and now.
Feb 18 19:29:33 <barry>	jml: shall we go another week?
Feb 18 19:29:37 <jml>	barry: yeah
Feb 18 19:29:42 <barry>	excellent
Feb 18 19:29:46 <jml>	barry: the stormsugar review will be a good opportunity
Feb 18 19:29:56 <barry>	jml: great
Feb 18 19:30:02 <barry>	anything else on mentoring?
Feb 18 19:30:45 <mwhudson>	how many devs are not reviewers yet?
Feb 18 19:30:55 <barry>	mwhudson: that's a great question
Feb 18 19:31:08 <jml>	nope
Feb 18 19:32:14 <barry>	noodles, leonardr, hennige
Feb 18 19:32:26 <barry>	maybe that's it
Feb 18 19:32:32 <mwhudson>	cool
Feb 18 19:32:36 <barry>	all three could definitely join the ranks of mentats
Feb 18 19:32:39 <mwhudson>	suprised leonard isn't on the way
Feb 18 19:32:52 <sinzui>	leonardr: had no interest I believe
Feb 18 19:33:03 <barry>	mwhudson: i think he's resisted it for a long time because he dabbles mostly in apiland
Feb 18 19:33:20 <jml>	how many people are not OCRs?
Feb 18 19:33:30 <barry>	jml: team leads and intellectronica 
Feb 18 19:33:32 <mwhudson>	i'm not sure people should be allowed to opt out :)
Feb 18 19:33:42 <barry>	team leads have to i think
Feb 18 19:33:43 <mwhudson>	(of being a reviewer, not necessarily ocr)
Feb 18 19:33:51 <barry>	intellectronica: is on sabbatical but he should come back!
Feb 18 19:34:09 <barry>	thumper: can be an exception
Feb 18 19:34:32 <intellectronica>	barry: i'm happy to come back this cycle
Feb 18 19:34:39 <barry>	intellectronica !
Feb 18 19:34:44 <barry>	intellectronica: excellent!
Feb 18 19:35:19 <barry>	intellectronica: monday euro is open
Feb 18 19:35:31 <barry>	but we can also move people around if you want
Feb 18 19:35:32 <sinzui>	team leads cover review of their team. I do about 4 a week
Feb 18 19:35:33 <intellectronica>	monday euro it is, then!
Feb 18 19:35:37 <sinzui>	but today I did 7
Feb 18 19:35:46 <barry>	sinzui: so every day is ocr for you? :)
Feb 18 19:35:50 <barry>	intellectronica: done
Feb 18 19:36:00 <jml>	barry: in asiapac, every day is ocr day.
Feb 18 19:36:37 <barry>	jml: yay?
Feb 18 19:36:50 <jml>	barry: hire more aussies :)
Feb 18 19:37:10 <barry>	jml: if it were up to me, i'd hire 10.  i love aussies
Feb 18 19:37:19 <jml>	*hugs*
Feb 18 19:37:20 <barry>	<cough>kiko</cough>
Feb 18 19:37:26 <jml>	anyway...
Feb 18 19:37:29 <barry>	anyway...
Feb 18 19:37:34 <mwhudson>	moving on?
Feb 18 19:37:40 <barry>	i will try to find mentors for those guys
Feb 18 19:37:52 <barry>	[TOPIC] peanut gallery
Feb 18 19:37:53 <MootBot>	New Topic:  peanut gallery
Feb 18 19:38:01 <jml>	mwhudson: I guess the Tasman is not choppy enough to block your mind-reading powers :)
Feb 18 19:38:03 <barry>	do you guys have anything?
Feb 18 19:38:10 <jml>	thumper has a thing.
Feb 18 19:38:11 *	thumper does
Feb 18 19:38:26 <thumper>	the webservice in pagetest globs should die a horrible death
Feb 18 19:38:31 <thumper>	it defaults to salgado
Feb 18 19:38:35 <thumper>	who is an admin user
Feb 18 19:38:45 <thumper>	also it defaults to change everything
Feb 18 19:38:54 <thumper>	it doesn't really allow testing of security at all through the pagetests
Feb 18 19:38:56 <mwhudson>	+1 +1 +1
Feb 18 19:38:58 <thumper>	we shouldn't use it
Feb 18 19:38:59 <thumper>	ever
Feb 18 19:39:13 <thumper>	there is a function called webservice_for_person
Feb 18 19:39:18 <thumper>	that takes a person object
Feb 18 19:39:21 <thumper>	we should use that more
Feb 18 19:39:27 <thumper>	this caused me considerable pain this week
Feb 18 19:39:33 <barry>	thumper: should we change webservice globs to not use an admin?
Feb 18 19:39:41 <thumper>	barry: at the very least
Feb 18 19:39:46 <thumper>	barry: we shouldn't use sample data
Feb 18 19:39:46 <barry>	how much breaks if we do that?
Feb 18 19:39:53 <thumper>	barry: and the webservice glob does
Feb 18 19:40:01 <thumper>	barry: so my preference would to be remove it all together
Feb 18 19:40:12 <barry>	that was my next suggestion :)
Feb 18 19:40:25 <thumper>	die sample data die!!!
Feb 18 19:40:37 <barry>	thumper: is there an open bug on this?  my inclination would be to assign such a bug to leonardr and/or foundations
Feb 18 19:40:46 <thumper>	no, not yet
Feb 18 19:41:03 <barry>	can you open one, or at least email the ml?
Feb 18 19:41:12 <barry>	fwiw, +1 btw :)
Feb 18 19:41:14 <thumper>	ok
Feb 18 19:41:45 <barry>	[ACTION] thumper to report about webserver glob as admin problem
Feb 18 19:41:46 <MootBot>	ACTION received:  thumper to report about webserver glob as admin problem
Feb 18 19:41:51 <barry>	excellent, thanks
Feb 18 19:41:56 <thumper>	next
Feb 18 19:41:58 <thumper>	is
Feb 18 19:42:08 <thumper>	 http://code.launchpad.net/launchpad/+activereviews
Feb 18 19:42:12 <thumper>	two main changes here
Feb 18 19:42:18 <thumper>	tables explaining what to do
Feb 18 19:42:23 <thumper>	or at least what you can do
Feb 18 19:42:39 <thumper>	and also the titles of the votes is the people who voted/reviewed
Feb 18 19:42:49 <thumper>	just an fyi
Feb 18 19:43:02 <jml>	One thing from me.
Feb 18 19:43:03 <mwhudson>	thumper: it's not totally obvious to me what "Completed reviews"/"Other reviews" means
Feb 18 19:43:13 *	jml waits though.
Feb 18 19:43:17 <barry>	mwhudson: i had the same confusion
Feb 18 19:43:19 <thumper>	mwhudson: I'm open to suggestions
Feb 18 19:43:36 <thumper>	it was beuno's idea
Feb 18 19:43:54 <barry>	thumper: [ui=barry]
Feb 18 19:43:57 <barry>	dang
Feb 18 19:44:00 <jml>	heh heh
Feb 18 19:44:19 <jml>	so, my one thing. it's quick
Feb 18 19:44:24 <barry>	thumper: but i really do like the new page
Feb 18 19:44:29 <barry>	jml: go4it
Feb 18 19:44:38 <mwhudson>	well, i guess it exacerbated by the fact that i'm not in ~launchpad-reviewers
Feb 18 19:44:40 <jml>	I came across some code that called _foo methods on objects defined in a different module
Feb 18 19:44:58 <jml>	please, please no one ever do that
Feb 18 19:45:05 <mwhudson>	thumper: i'll let you know if i had any better ideas :)
Feb 18 19:45:19 <jml>	given that we control both ends of the stick, just rename the method to 'foo' if you have to do that.
Feb 18 19:45:51 <jml>	it's not like we care about internal API compat.
Feb 18 19:45:56 <barry>	jml: +1
Feb 18 19:46:07 <thumper>	add to reviewers checklist?
Feb 18 19:46:19 <jml>	(as well as edit the reviewers checklist to make it short and punchy)
Feb 18 19:46:26 <jml>	((we talked about that last week))
Feb 18 19:46:37 <barry>	yes, yes, yes ;)
Feb 18 19:46:47 <jml>	barry: <3
Feb 18 19:47:01 *	e-jat (n=fenris@211.24.237.3) has joined #launchpad-meeting
Feb 18 19:47:01 <barry>	one of these days i really will garden those pages
Feb 18 19:47:23 <barry>	but i think i'll wait until the nags head sprint when i'm good and sloshed
Feb 18 19:47:37 <barry>	anybody else have anything?
Feb 18 19:47:44 <jml>	nope
Feb 18 19:47:46 <thumper>	i'm done
Feb 18 19:47:58 <barry>	just one or two quick ones from the ameu meeting then...
Feb 18 19:48:00 *	mwhudson done too
Feb 18 19:48:30 <barry>	bigjools is going to experiment on helper functions to make circular import backpatching less disgusting
Feb 18 19:48:50 <barry>	we talked about a few things there, see the irc log for details (which i'll send out tomorrow <wink>)
Feb 18 19:48:51 <thumper>	there is that file in c.l.interfaces
Feb 18 19:48:54 *	thumper goes to look
Feb 18 19:48:57 <barry>	thumper: yep
Feb 18 19:49:01 <barry>	thumper: we know about it :)
Feb 18 19:49:14 <thumper>	oh, ok
Feb 18 19:49:20 <barry>	next
Feb 18 19:49:32 <thumper>	only code-team items in there though
Feb 18 19:49:33 <jml>	Ich habe ein Bärenhunger
Feb 18 19:49:36 <barry>	everyone needs to bribe gary so that he buildouts launchpad in his spare time
Feb 18 19:49:40 <thumper>	_schema_circular_imports
Feb 18 19:50:05 <barry>	but anyway.  must abide hunger, so that's it from me
Feb 18 19:50:14 <mwhudson>	ok
Feb 18 19:50:14 <barry>	let's call it
Feb 18 19:50:16 <mwhudson>	thanks barry
Feb 18 19:50:17 <barry>	#endmeeting
}}}