ReviewerMeeting20081126

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ReviewerMeeting20081126

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(note: there was some additional post-meeting feedback)

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Nov 26 10:00:37 <barry> #startmeeting
Nov 26 10:00:38 <MootBot>       Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is barry.
Nov 26 10:00:38 <MootBot>       Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
Nov 26 10:00:43 *       bac (n=bac@canonical/launchpad/bac) has joined #launchpad-meeting
Nov 26 10:00:51 <barry> hello everyone and welcome to this week's ameu reviewers meeting.  who's here today?
Nov 26 10:00:54 <sinzui>        me
Nov 26 10:00:55 <beuno> me
Nov 26 10:00:56 <gmb>   me
Nov 26 10:00:56 <bac>   me
Nov 26 10:01:00 <mars>  me
Nov 26 10:01:07 <adeuring>      me
Nov 26 10:01:34 *       flacoste (n=francis@canonical/launchpad/flacoste) has joined #launchpad-meeting
Nov 26 10:01:43 <EdwinGrubbs>   me
Nov 26 10:01:47 <abentley1>     moo
Nov 26 10:01:48 <flacoste>      me
Nov 26 10:01:53 *       abentley1 is now known as abentley
Nov 26 10:02:18 *       mars was thinking of 'moo', but chicken'd out
Nov 26 10:02:31 <mars>  cluck cluck
Nov 26 10:02:47 <barry> [TOPIC] agenda
Nov 26 10:02:48 <MootBot>       New Topic:  agenda
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>  * Roll call
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>  * Getting graphs in place before rolling out features (way before) - beuno
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>  * Merge proposal bugs
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>    * 245257 - 5 (diffs/bundles)
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>    * 202000 - 3 (complete diffs)
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>    * 300462 - 2 (better follow up diffs)
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>    * 297547 - 2 (CC someone via email)
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>    * 295156 - 1 (one mail on merge proposals)
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>    * 297640 - 1 (quote comments in web ui)
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>    * 297669 - 1 (Approve a mp via email)
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>    * 301836 - 1 (dashboard - difficult to figure out what to do)
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>    * 264905 - 1 (access via launchpadlib)
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>  * If there's time, the old boring script
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>    * Next meeting
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>    * Action items
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>    * Queue status
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>    * Mentoring update
Nov 26 10:02:58 <barry>      * al-maisan looking for a mentor
Nov 26 10:03:14 <barry> [TOPIC]  * Getting graphs in place before rolling out features (way before) - beuno
Nov 26 10:03:19 <rockstar>      me
Nov 26 10:03:25 <barry> beuno: the floor is yours
Nov 26 10:03:27 <MootBot>       New Topic:   * Getting graphs in place before rolling out features (way before) - beuno
Nov 26 10:03:43 <beuno> hello hello
Nov 26 10:03:57 <beuno> so, I sent out an email to the list about this
Nov 26 10:04:07 <beuno> and since everyone seemed on board with the idea
Nov 26 10:04:15 <beuno> I'd like to formalize it somehow for the reviews
Nov 26 10:04:48 <beuno> the main idea is to have enough information beforehand being collected, to be able to track the impact of the feature/change
Nov 26 10:04:52 <danilos>       me (late)
Nov 26 10:05:01 <jtv1>  me too
Nov 26 10:05:26 <abentley>      beuno: I don't really get it.  What features do we graph, and how do we know what we care about?
Nov 26 10:06:45 <danilos>       I wonder more about how much overhead this introduces to our development process
Nov 26 10:06:59 <bac>   beuno: like abentley i'm a little confused and would benefit from a fleshed-out example.
Nov 26 10:07:16 <beuno> so, if you're going to add diffs to merge proposals, make sure we have a graph on how many merge proposals we have per day
Nov 26 10:07:27 <beuno> maybe how many comments per merge proposal
Nov 26 10:07:37 <beuno> and that we we can measure what kind of impact the feature had
Nov 26 10:07:44 <beuno> is it making users use the feature more?
Nov 26 10:07:49 <beuno> are they commenting less?
Nov 26 10:08:08 <beuno> basically enough information to be able to interpret them
Nov 26 10:08:17 <barry> beuno: i have no idea how to create graphs.  i know how to collect data i might be interested in in my db tables tho
Nov 26 10:08:46 <barry> beuno: are we basically talking about making sure we're collecting interesting usage data for our new features, or is there more to that?
Nov 26 10:08:51 <mars>  abentley, a good example of a back-fill graph would the the 'Review type' feature.  Do people ever set the review type?  How often?
Nov 26 10:09:00 <flacoste>      barry:  i think it's adding cricket graph
Nov 26 10:09:01 <beuno> barry, it's just opening an RT ticket with the sql query to be ran every day
Nov 26 10:09:25 *       kiko-afk (n=kiko@canonical/launchpad/kiko) has joined #launchpad-meeting
Nov 26 10:09:27 <kiko-afk>      hey there
Nov 26 10:09:32 <kiko-afk>      can you guys ask martin through email
Nov 26 10:09:35 <jtv1>  kiko-afk, you're here!
Nov 26 10:09:35 <kiko-afk>      or next century
Nov 26 10:09:38 <kiko-afk>      kthxbye
Nov 26 10:09:39 *       kiko-afk (n=kiko@canonical/launchpad/kiko) has left #launchpad-meeting ("Left to bother somebody else")
Nov 26 10:09:45 *       beuno closes laptop
Nov 26 10:10:14 <barry> okay!  i guess we'll continue that discussion on the ml
Nov 26 10:10:17 <mars>  now *that* was a drive-by
Nov 26 10:10:19 <gmb>   From now on let it be known:
Nov 26 10:10:24 <gmb>   kiko is beuno's mother
Nov 26 10:10:29 <rockstar>      Ha!
Nov 26 10:10:46 <barry> now that they're gone, it's time to party!
Nov 26 10:10:53 <barry> [TOPIC]  * Merge proposal bugs
Nov 26 10:10:54 <MootBot>       New Topic:   * Merge proposal bugs
Nov 26 10:11:14 <barry> thanks everyone who sent me their feedback.  here are the totals so far:
Nov 26 10:11:22 <barry>    * 245257 - 5 (diffs/bundles)
Nov 26 10:11:22 <barry>    * 202000 - 3 (complete diffs)
Nov 26 10:11:22 <barry>    * 300462 - 2 (better follow up diffs)
Nov 26 10:11:22 <barry>    * 297547 - 2 (CC someone via email)
Nov 26 10:11:22 <barry>    * 295156 - 1 (one mail on merge proposals)
Nov 26 10:11:22 <barry>    * 297640 - 1 (quote comments in web ui)
Nov 26 10:11:22 <barry>    * 297669 - 1 (Approve a mp via email)
Nov 26 10:11:22 <barry>    * 301836 - 1 (dashboard - difficult to figure out what to do)
Nov 26 10:11:22 <barry>    * 264905 - 1 (access via launchpadlib)
Nov 26 10:11:23 <abentley>      beuno: I am skepical that we'll know the right things to graph before we land the feature.  I am skeptical that it will be physically possible to create the graph before we land the feature.
Nov 26 10:11:40 <barry> the first number is the bug number, second is the # of people who named that bug, followed by a brief summary
Nov 26 10:11:41 *       jtv has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Nov 26 10:11:42 <bac>   bug301836 += 1
Nov 26 10:12:04 <barry> bac: i guess make that 2 :)
Nov 26 10:12:20 <barry> it's clear to me that 245257 is our top priority
Nov 26 10:12:30 <barry> 202000 and 300462 are closely related
Nov 26 10:12:31 *       al-maisan (n=al-maisa@p5087B706.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #launchpad-meeting
Nov 26 10:12:42 <danilos>       my idea about 297669 is similar to what 301836 will provide (i.e. if we finally start using the merge-proposal status and set it as "Approved" instead of just voting, we'd be able to see what is there that still needs to be reviewed)
Nov 26 10:12:52 <barry> does anybody have any addition comments, and then i'd like to get abentley and rockstar 's feedback
Nov 26 10:13:36 <rockstar>      barry, I know MOST of those are being worked on in some form or another.
Nov 26 10:14:15 <danilos>       rockstar: ok, so they'll be done by next week? ;)
Nov 26 10:14:19 *       danilos runs and hides
Nov 26 10:14:34 <rockstar>      danilos, well, for some of them, yes.
Nov 26 10:14:41 <barry> rockstar: i'm off for thanksgiving weekend, so if you could land those my monday, that would be great kthxbye
Nov 26 10:14:47 <barry> :)
Nov 26 10:14:59 <rockstar>      barry, but I need turkey too!
Nov 26 10:15:07 <barry> abentley: clearly 245257 is our #1 request.  any word on that?
Nov 26 10:15:24 <flacoste>      barry: 300462 +1 (i didn't vote on my bug)
Nov 26 10:15:31 <abentley>      barry: The general case will take a while, because we need a job processing system to accomplish it.
Nov 26 10:15:53 <barry> rockstar: http://markmail.org/message/bve73p3qumsij3he
Nov 26 10:16:14 <barry> flacoste: thanks, i'll up the tally on that one
Nov 26 10:16:23 <abentley>      barry: And that was blocked by sabdfl until quite recently
Nov 26 10:16:46 <barry> abentley: ack
Nov 26 10:17:07 <abentley>      barry: I am currently working on support for merge directives.  That will be able to use the diff from the merge directive.
Nov 26 10:17:20 <barry> abentley: that.  will.   rock.
Nov 26 10:18:05 <barry> abentley, rockstar do you think the team will find this list helpful?
Nov 26 10:18:17 <rockstar>      barry, I know I do.
Nov 26 10:18:18 <abentley>      barry: Not really.  We know all this stuff.
Nov 26 10:18:55 <rockstar>      The bugs at the top I knew are important, but the ones farther down are helpful in figuring out which bugs tagged code-review are most important.
Nov 26 10:19:41 <rockstar>      Because there are probably 30 bugs, and it's good to know which 10 of those are most important to the rest of the lp team.
Nov 26 10:19:48 <abentley>      barry: Code review by email was intended to support attachments.  We'll need to investigate why they don't.
Nov 26 10:19:55 <barry> cool, what say i update the tallies after this meeting and send it on to the list.  maybe someone on the team can provide a feedback on a rough alignment of these with your own priorities?
Nov 26 10:20:21 *       salgado is now known as salgado-lunch
Nov 26 10:21:00 <barry> abentley: thx
Nov 26 10:21:22 <barry> BjornT: what do you think?
Nov 26 10:22:11 <gmb>   barry: BjornT's all sprinty with beuno, kiko and intellectronica.
Nov 26 10:22:22 <gmb>   So his responses might be delayed somewhat.
Nov 26 10:22:28 <abentley>      thumper is working on 295156
Nov 26 10:22:48 <flacoste>      abentley: do you know they don't, i assumed they didn't but didn't try it out
Nov 26 10:22:53 <barry> gmb: k
Nov 26 10:22:54 <abentley>      297669 seems reasonable and easy
Nov 26 10:23:13 <abentley>      thumper is also working on 301836
Nov 26 10:23:25 <abentley>      rockstar is working on 264905
Nov 26 10:23:27 <barry> abentley: are the email commands documented in the help wiki?
Nov 26 10:23:34 <abentley>      barry: yes.
Nov 26 10:23:36 *       rockstar nods
Nov 26 10:23:40 <barry> abentley: great!
Nov 26 10:24:32 <barry> anything else on this topic?
Nov 26 10:25:02 <abentley>      300462 will take even longer than a general solution for 202000, because sabdfl doesn't want us to do this for every project on launchpad.
Nov 26 10:25:44 <barry> abentley: why not?
Nov 26 10:25:46 <abentley>      Instead, there will be a script you can run in an EC2 instance.
Nov 26 10:25:53 <abentley>      barry: Resource consumption.
Nov 26 10:26:05 <barry> ah
Nov 26 10:26:51 <flacoste>      abentley: for the record, if attachment are handled, i consider 300462 as not really worth it
Nov 26 10:27:19 <flacoste>      abentley: developer are used to and can attach the diff to the follow-up email, i though attachments weren't supported
Nov 26 10:27:38 <abentley>      297547 is impossible, because sabdfl doesn't want to allow subscriptions to code reviews.
Nov 26 10:27:40 <flacoste>      and thumper didn't told me they were when I discuss this aspect with him and he told me to file a general bug about that aspect
Nov 26 10:28:31 <abentley>      flacoste: We intended attachments to work.  They don't.  We haven't had a chance to find out why.
Nov 26 10:29:05 <flacoste>      abentley: then fixing attachment is enough for me to consider that bug complete
Nov 26 10:29:06 <abentley>      I only verified it yesteday.
Nov 26 10:29:11 <abentley>      flacoste: Cool
Nov 26 10:29:56 <barry> thanks everyone.  i appreciate the discussion.  i think it will make mp's really excellent to use.  moving on...
Nov 26 10:30:14 <barry> i'm going to skip around a little bit...
Nov 26 10:30:17 <barry> [TOPIC]    * Mentoring update
Nov 26 10:30:17 <MootBot>       New Topic:     * Mentoring update
Nov 26 10:30:23 <barry>      * al-maisan looking for a mentor
Nov 26 10:30:31 <barry> have we rounded up a mentor for al-maisan yet?
Nov 26 10:30:35 <al-maisan>     barry: yes
Nov 26 10:30:40 <barry> al-maisan: excellent, who?
Nov 26 10:30:46 <al-maisan>     gmb volunteered
Nov 26 10:30:48 <al-maisan>     :)
Nov 26 10:31:00 <barry> fantastic!  al-maisan welcome aboard.  gmb thanks!
Nov 26 10:31:09 <al-maisan>     thanks!
Nov 26 10:31:13 *       bigjools winks at gmb and hands over the fiver
Nov 26 10:31:22 <barry> [TOPIC]    * Action items
Nov 26 10:31:23 <MootBot>       New Topic:     * Action items
Nov 26 10:31:24 <gmb>   Heh.
Nov 26 10:31:27 <barry>  * barry to look into techniques for eliminating back-patching of schema types (avoiding circular imports)
Nov 26 10:31:46 <barry> i have done nothing on this yet, but i plan on looking at it over the break.  i think it will be easy
Nov 26 10:32:13 <barry> [TOPIC] anything else?
Nov 26 10:32:14 <MootBot>       New Topic:  anything else?
Nov 26 10:32:22 <barry> does anybody have anything not on the agenda today?
Nov 26 10:32:30 <abentley>      Yes.  When am I a reviewer?
Nov 26 10:32:37 <abentley>      OCR, I mean?
Nov 26 10:32:39 <rockstar>      :)
Nov 26 10:33:20 <barry> abentley: ah.  what would you prefer?  i'm very happy to say we have great coverage for eu/am
Nov 26 10:33:48 <barry> abentley: i'm also happy to move if you prefer mondays
Nov 26 10:33:57 <rockstar>      abentley, you get the Monday AsiaPac shift!  :)
Nov 26 10:34:16 <barry> but i think we'll be doubling up no matter what we do, unless some of us move to au/nz :)
Nov 26 10:34:31 <barry> doubling up is not a bad thing!
Nov 26 10:34:52 <abentley>      I think Mondays are best for me.  But if al-maisan and gmb are doing mondays, that doesn't make sense, does it?
Nov 26 10:35:10 <gmb>   abentley: Well, you start fairly late in our day.
Nov 26 10:35:13 <abentley>      Fridays might also work.
Nov 26 10:35:14 <al-maisan>     hmm .. different time zones
Nov 26 10:35:18 <gmb>   So it's not *that* mcuh of an overlap.
Nov 26 10:35:22 <al-maisan>     yep
Nov 26 10:35:25 <gmb>   abentley: What's your timezone?
Nov 26 10:35:28 <abentley>      On Monday, I haven't spoken to thumper for 2 days.
Nov 26 10:35:31 <mars>  gmb, same as mine
Nov 26 10:35:36 <gmb>   ...
Nov 26 10:35:38 <barry> abentley: i'm also happy to move to another day if you really want mondays
Nov 26 10:35:45 <gmb>   mars: Which one is that?
Nov 26 10:35:49 *       gmb has the dumb
Nov 26 10:35:53 <mars>  gmb, EST
Nov 26 10:35:57 <gmb>   Ah, okay.
Nov 26 10:36:35 <gmb>   So, abentley is al-maisan -6, gmb -5. That's not a terrible overlap.
Nov 26 10:37:12 <barry> abentley: your call.  pick a slot
Nov 26 10:37:14 <abentley>      Okay.  I guess I didn't realize you were going off shift soon after I arrived.
Nov 26 10:37:31 <abentley>      barry: Okay, Mondays please.
Nov 26 10:37:51 <barry> abentley: it's yours.  i'll find a time to move to
Nov 26 10:37:59 <abentley>      barry: ta
Nov 26 10:38:11 <barry> cool.  any other topics for today?
Nov 26 10:38:38 <barry> 5
Nov 26 10:38:48 <abentley>      barry: Is it true that we're no longer adding entries to lib/canonical/launchpad/interfaces ?
Nov 26 10:39:07 <barry> abentley: more specific imports are preferred, yes
Nov 26 10:39:20 <abentley>      i.e. you should do "from canonical.launchpad.interfaces.branch import Branch"?
Nov 26 10:39:38 <barry> abentley: correct
Nov 26 10:40:05 <abentley>      Okay.  What about "from canonical.launchpad.interfaces import branch"?
Nov 26 10:40:36 <barry> abentley: i have no problem with that if it helps avoid name conflicts
Nov 26 10:40:52 <barry> i.e. implements(branch.IBranch)
Nov 26 10:41:06 <abentley>      barry: it helps reduce the number of imports tremendously.
Nov 26 10:41:39 <sinzui>        abentley: barry: That is common practice in Zope code
Nov 26 10:42:28 <abentley>      sinzui: Also in Bazaar, though both forms are accepted.
Nov 26 10:42:53 <barry> i think i'd like to see what that looks like if it's used more frequently.  i like the shorter names and don't mind the longer imports, but if you want to start using that style, let's see how it looks
Nov 26 10:43:13 <abentley>      Okay.
Nov 26 10:43:48 <barry> anything else with our last 2 minutes?
Nov 26 10:43:54 <sinzui>        barry: It may be a solution to the insanely long soyuz names
Nov 26 10:44:18 <barry> sinzui: that in itself would be enough! :)
Nov 26 10:44:59 <bigjools>      leave our long names alone!
Nov 26 10:45:29 <barry> and with that, we're done! :)
Nov 26 10:45:30 <sinzui>        It's not the size that counts, it's what you do with it.
Nov 26 10:45:34 <barry> #endmeeting