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Jul 08 10:00:03 <barry> #startmeeting
Jul 08 10:00:05 <MootBot>       Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is barry.
Jul 08 10:00:05 <MootBot>       Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
Jul 08 10:00:15 *       abentley ( has joined #launchpad-meeting
Jul 08 10:00:16 <barry> hello and welcome to this week's ameu reviewers meeting.  who's here today?
Jul 08 10:00:18 <bigjools>      me
Jul 08 10:00:18 <rockstar>      ni!
Jul 08 10:00:19 <bac>   me
Jul 08 10:00:20 <henninge>      me
Jul 08 10:00:21 <allenap>       me
Jul 08 10:00:22 <mars>  me
Jul 08 10:00:22 <abentley>      me
Jul 08 10:00:24 <noodles>       yup
Jul 08 10:00:41 <sinzui>        me
Jul 08 10:00:43 <BjornT>        me
Jul 08 10:01:02 <EdwinGrubbs>   me
Jul 08 10:01:04 <barry> intellectronica sends his apologies
Jul 08 10:01:28 <barry> adeuring: ping
Jul 08 10:01:37 <adeuring>      me
Jul 08 10:01:46 <gmb>   me
Jul 08 10:01:52 <barry> cprov, danilos ping
Jul 08 10:02:01 <cprov> me
Jul 08 10:02:08 <barry> gary_poster: ping
Jul 08 10:02:23 <barry> salgado: ping
Jul 08 10:02:25 <gary_poster>   barry: thanks
Jul 08 10:02:26 <gary_poster>   me
Jul 08 10:02:34 <salgado>       me!
Jul 08 10:02:40 <barry> [TOPIC] agenda
Jul 08 10:02:41 <MootBot>       New Topic:  agenda
Jul 08 10:02:49 <barry>  * Roll call
Jul 08 10:02:49 <barry>  * Wednesday AMEU hard stop, barry
Jul 08 10:02:49 <barry>  * Action items
Jul 08 10:02:49 <barry>  * Mentoring update
Jul 08 10:02:49 <barry>  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
Jul 08 10:03:17 <barry> i have a hard stop at 14:45 today.  hopefully we won't go that long anyway :)
Jul 08 10:03:29 <barry> [TOPIC] action items
Jul 08 10:03:31 <MootBot>       New Topic:  action items
Jul 08 10:03:34 *       flacoste (n=francis@canonical/launchpad/flacoste) has joined #launchpad-meeting
Jul 08 10:03:41 <barry>  * adeuring to update wiki pages regarding `except Exception`, `KeyboardInterrupt` and `SystemExit`
Jul 08 10:03:50 <adeuring>      done
Jul 08 10:03:54 <barry> adeuring: thanks!
Jul 08 10:04:05 <barry>  * gary_poster to take importfascist and rSP() discussion to ml
Jul 08 10:04:25 <gary_poster>   nope.  I will bring new energy to the task. ;-)
Jul 08 10:04:36 <barry> gary_poster: cool.  keep it on the list then?
Jul 08 10:04:39 <gary_poster>   y
Jul 08 10:04:45 <barry> +1
Jul 08 10:04:50 <danilos>       me
Jul 08 10:04:56 <barry> intellectronica's not here today, so...
Jul 08 10:05:09 <barry> [TOPIC]  * Mentoring update
Jul 08 10:05:10 <MootBot>       New Topic:   * Mentoring update
Jul 08 10:05:25 <barry> lessee, i think we're missing both deryck and leonardr
Jul 08 10:05:56 <barry> any word from their mentors?  how are things going?
Jul 08 10:06:11 *       leonardr_ (n=leonardr@ has joined #launchpad-meeting
Jul 08 10:06:21 <rockstar>      barry, things is going well.
Jul 08 10:06:29 <barry> leonardr_: hi!
Jul 08 10:06:30 <gmb>   Very well.
Jul 08 10:06:33 <leonardr_>     hi barry
Jul 08 10:06:41 <gmb>   Speaking of which...
Jul 08 10:06:57 <barry> rockstar: great, thanks for mentoring.  leonardr_ any comments, problems, feedback on reviewing?
Jul 08 10:07:07 *       deryck (n=deryck@samba/team/deryck) has joined #launchpad-meeting
Jul 08 10:07:26 <barry> gmb: what's up?
Jul 08 10:07:48 <gmb>   barry: Oh, nothing, I just realised deryck wasn't here :)
Jul 08 10:07:52 <barry> :)
Jul 08 10:07:59 <barry> deryck: how's the reviewing going?
Jul 08 10:08:04 <gmb>   barry: FTR, deryck's doing a fine job. He'll graduate in no time.
Jul 08 10:08:17 <deryck>        barry, I think going well, if I could remember to show up for things. :)
Jul 08 10:08:22 <barry> gmb, deryck excellent
Jul 08 10:08:31 <barry> deryck: isn't it almost your eod? :)
Jul 08 10:08:36 <leonardr_>     barry: i was hoping for some more interactive mentoring. on thursday i was reviewing a complicated branch and both rockstar and the person who submitted the branch were afk. i did the review but i don't think i learned as much from it as i could have
Jul 08 10:08:47 <deryck>        barry, not quite. :)
Jul 08 10:09:15 <barry> leonardr_: you can always ping me if needed
Jul 08 10:09:19 <leonardr_>     barry, ok, cool
Jul 08 10:09:33 <barry> anything else on mentoring?
Jul 08 10:09:38 <rockstar>      leonardr_, I was afk?  Hm.  I don't remember that.  I'll make sure to be around.
Jul 08 10:09:42 <bigjools>      leonardr_: if the submitter is not around, drop the review if you have questions
Jul 08 10:10:19 <rockstar>      I don't think dropping the review is right.  I think you can respond without voting.
Jul 08 10:10:40 <barry> or just ask all those questions in the review!
Jul 08 10:10:43 <bigjools>      if it was requested as an OCR, it goes to the back of the queue until that person shows up
Jul 08 10:10:58 <leonardr_>     that's what i did. i did other reviews which were easier, and then i did this one
Jul 08 10:11:00 <bigjools>      these are the rules we agreed on a long time ago
Jul 08 10:11:07 <barry> bigjools: +1
Jul 08 10:11:11 <leonardr_>     and i asked my questions in the review
Jul 08 10:11:21 <bigjools>      but leave a question in the review and mark it needs-reply
Jul 08 10:11:41 <leonardr_>     the reason it was difficult is it took me a long time to understand the code well enough to formulate the questions
Jul 08 10:11:47 <rockstar>      bigjools, hm, I guess you have different rules than I, but my team spans more timezones than yours.
Jul 08 10:11:58 <rockstar>      leonardr_, was this cprov's branch?
Jul 08 10:12:01 <leonardr_>     rockstar, yeah
Jul 08 10:12:06 <bac>   we should reiterate that people requesting an OCR need to be around or negotiate their absense with the reviewer
Jul 08 10:12:07 <barry> leonardr_: that'll happen at first, don't worry about it too much
Jul 08 10:12:18 *       bigjools is shocked that cprov was not around :)
Jul 08 10:12:37 <rockstar>      bac, why do they need to be around?
Jul 08 10:12:44 <bigjools>      leonardr_: yeah, don't feel too bad about doing another review
Jul 08 10:12:51 <bigjools>      instead of that one
Jul 08 10:13:11 <abentley>      rockstar: OCR is supposed to be interactive.
Jul 08 10:13:12 <rockstar>      leonardr_, I was around last week.  Remember, we got swamped?
Jul 08 10:13:12 <bac>   rockstar: so the review can be interactive.  that was one of the principles of having OCR
Jul 08 10:13:13 <cprov> leonardr_: I thought it was perfectly fine to jump to another review when I was out
Jul 08 10:13:19 <barry> rockstar: they need to negotiate their absence with the reviewer, who might not want to take a particular branch if the submitter isn't around to answer questions in realtime
Jul 08 10:13:40 <bigjools>      this is written up on the OCR page I thought
Jul 08 10:13:44 *       catrun (n=catrun@ has joined #launchpad-meeting
Jul 08 10:13:46 <rockstar>      barry, okay, I think "negotiate with the reviewer" is better than "drop it until they come back"
Jul 08 10:14:01 <cprov> leonardr_: there was enough time for finishing the review while I was around, but you had problems with your account, remember ?
Jul 08 10:14:09 <leonardr_>     cprov: i did
Jul 08 10:14:34 <barry> rockstar: right. but if the submitter just disappears, the reviewer has every right to move on
Jul 08 10:14:41 <bigjools>      exactly
Jul 08 10:14:47 <leonardr_>     i don't blame anyone for not being around at my convenience. and i did move on--i reviewed the other two branches in the queue before coming back
Jul 08 10:14:51 <rockstar>      barry, yes, because it wasn't negotiated.  I'm happy with that.
Jul 08 10:14:54 <cprov> leonardr_: right, I think when something like this happens there isn't much you can do, abstain and move on, no worries.
Jul 08 10:15:05 <barry> cool
Jul 08 10:15:10 <barry> cprov: yep
Jul 08 10:15:17 <leonardr_>     ok, in the future i'll abstain and do other work rather than bang my head against a branch all day
Jul 08 10:15:30 <barry> leonardr_: thanks for bringing this up
Jul 08 10:15:44 <leonardr_>     np
Jul 08 10:16:10 <barry> [TOPIC]  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
Jul 08 10:16:12 <MootBot>       New Topic:   * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
Jul 08 10:16:19 <barry> does anybody have any other topics today?
Jul 08 10:17:11 <barry> that seems like a "no" :)
Jul 08 10:17:16 <henninge>      barry: just to mention:
Jul 08 10:17:24 <barry> henninge: go ahead
Jul 08 10:17:29 <henninge>      I changed my OCR slot to Monday Euro.
Jul 08 10:17:33 <rockstar>      barry, do we have a policy on multiline list comprehensions?
Jul 08 10:17:33 *       bigjools thought of something
Jul 08 10:17:51 <barry> henninge: thanks.  did you update the wiki page?
Jul 08 10:17:57 <henninge>      barry: yes
Jul 08 10:18:00 <barry> rockstar: i believe we do, in our python style guide
Jul 08 10:18:05 <barry> henninge: thanks!
Jul 08 10:18:10 <barry> bigjools: go ahead
Jul 08 10:18:13 <bigjools>      ok
Jul 08 10:18:22 *       catrun (n=catrun@ has left #launchpad-meeting ("Konversation terminated!")
Jul 08 10:18:29 <salgado>       leonardr_, another option is to use kiko's approach and ask tons of questions on the review.  once the developer answers them you can do a proper review
Jul 08 10:18:33 <bigjools>      in a fix I made this week I had a hellish time dealing with code that was a mix of unicode and ascii strings
Jul 08 10:18:49 <bigjools>      Bjorn had some interesting post-review points
Jul 08 10:19:16 <bigjools>      but the upshot is that the code should be using unicode strings throughout, up until the point where you have to encode it as utf
Jul 08 10:19:22 <bigjools>      is this enforceable?
Jul 08 10:19:25 <leonardr_>     salgado, true
Jul 08 10:19:33 <bigjools>      across LP I mean
Jul 08 10:19:44 <cprov> salgado: yes, that would work too, but unnecessarily binds the reviewer to the branch.
Jul 08 10:19:51 <rockstar>      bigjools, it'd be nice.
Jul 08 10:20:11 <abentley>      bigjools: In bzr, we often hold strings as utf-8-encoded bytes, for performance reasons.
Jul 08 10:20:16 <barry> when we're on python 2.6, i really want to add "from __future__ import unicode_literals" to the header of every file
Jul 08 10:20:25 <barry> (and absolute_import but that's a different issue)
Jul 08 10:20:25 <bigjools>      abentley: interesting, how much of a performance hit is there?
Jul 08 10:20:56 <abentley>      bigjools: dunno.  And I know that bzr manipulates a lot more data than your typical Launchpad page.
Jul 08 10:21:04 <bigjools>      right
Jul 08 10:21:17 <barry> abentley: bzr is probably more byte-oriented than launchpad, which is more text oriented
Jul 08 10:21:36 <bigjools>      it probably won't make much difference for us, we have bigger performance problems to worry about
Jul 08 10:21:49 <abentley>      barry: Lots of things are defined as unicode, like filenames and revision-ids.
Jul 08 10:22:06 <barry> abentley: good point about filenames, didn't know about revids
Jul 08 10:22:42 <bigjools>      the thing I was fixing were error messages in our upload processor, as soon as an ascii string formatter pulls in some unicode from the database, you're in trouble
Jul 08 10:22:57 <barry> i do think enforcing unicode literals will help, but it will probably expose places where we are being sloppy
Jul 08 10:23:24 <flacoste>      barry: won't that means a 100,000 line diffs?
Jul 08 10:23:30 <bigjools>      it might need a larger concentrated cross-team effort on it at some point
Jul 08 10:23:32 <flacoste>      barry: to update the expected output of doctests?
Jul 08 10:23:45 <barry> flacoste: not if people are printing string values!
Jul 08 10:23:53 <flacoste>      barry: they are not
Jul 08 10:24:06 <flacoste>      barry: just grep for u' in the tests
Jul 08 10:24:07 <abentley>      barry: Python's willingness to convert ascii-encoded str into unicode is convenient, but can mask problems later.
Jul 08 10:24:08 <barry> flacoste: it's our rule (now) but yeah there's legacy code
Jul 08 10:24:17 <barry> abentley: yep
Jul 08 10:25:13 <barry> anyway, we're not on python2.6 so it's kind of a moot discussion, but it should be a goal of ours to be explicit in our code whether we're talking strings or bytes
Jul 08 10:25:24 <barry> (where byte literals are defined with b'' prefix)
Jul 08 10:25:45 <barry> it won't be painless though ;)
Jul 08 10:26:07 <barry> anyway...
Jul 08 10:26:18 <barry> anything else on this or other topics for today?
Jul 08 10:26:28 <bigjools>      my immediate question is, it might be worth trying to enforce unicode now in reviews to reduce the potential for more problems.  What do you think?
Jul 08 10:27:21 <barry> bigjools: possibly.  i hate to introduce more u'' prefixes when we can soon make them all go away
Jul 08 10:27:39 <barry> bigjools: otoh, we can probably convert module-by-module
Jul 08 10:28:03 <bigjools>      I guarantee there will be lots of pain unless it's done all at once
Jul 08 10:28:15 <bigjools>      but ok, let's move on
Jul 08 10:28:31 <barry> bigjools: which isn't to say you guarantee it will be painless if it is all done at once :)
Jul 08 10:28:43 <bigjools>      there's relative levels of pain :)
Jul 08 10:29:00 <barry> :)
Jul 08 10:29:06 <barry> okay, anything else?
Jul 08 10:29:17 *       herb ( has joined #launchpad-meeting
Jul 08 10:29:29 <barry> 5
Jul 08 10:29:32 <barry> 4
Jul 08 10:29:34 <barry> 3
Jul 08 10:29:37 <barry> 2
Jul 08 10:29:39 <barry> 1
Jul 08 10:29:42 <barry> #endmeeting


Jul 08 18:35:07 <barry> #startmeeting
Jul 08 18:35:08 <MootBot>       Meeting started at 17:35. The chair is barry.
Jul 08 18:35:08 <MootBot>       Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
Jul 08 18:35:10 <barry> mwhudson: hi
Jul 08 18:35:12 <barry> thumper: hi
Jul 08 18:35:14 <barry> jml: hi
Jul 08 18:35:39 <thumper>       hi
Jul 08 18:35:58 <barry> well, not much to recap from ameu today
Jul 08 18:36:09 <barry> so i'll just open up the floor to anything you guys have
Jul 08 18:36:30 <thumper>       I don't have anything
Jul 08 18:36:57 <mwhudson>      oh
Jul 08 18:37:05 <mwhudson>      me neither
Jul 08 18:37:11 <barry> mwhudson: record breaking
Jul 08 18:37:25 <barry> i guess we're done then :)
Jul 08 18:37:31 <thumper>       w00t
Jul 08 18:37:35 <barry> #endmeeting

ReviewerMeeting20090708 (last edited 2009-07-08 23:49:15 by barry)